Conga Lines And Haunt Designs

[Skelterbet]

If you are anything like me, you absolutely LOVE going to Haunts. Given the sheer number of Haunts available coupled with the prices, very few of us are able to see them all. Thus, we want our Haunt experience to scare us out of our wits, make us scream our lungs out, cause us (or just our friends) to wet our pants, and, overall, have a wonderful time while getting the best bang for our buck.

Haunt Owners, likewise, LOVE making and running their Haunt(s). They want us to come to their Haunt, get scared out of our wits, scream our lungs out, wet our pants, and, overall, have a wonderful time getting the best bang for our buck.

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This topic is for us, the fans AND the owners, to openly discuss common problems that occur at Haunts and to throw suggestions or even half-baked ideas on how to solve them. This is an open forum so we can all brainstorm and, hopefully, come up with some things that Haunt owners can use to try to make our Haunt experiences better.

Some ground rules:
1) We are interested in any ideas you have on how to solve a problem, regardless of how crazy the idea is.
2) We are NOT interested in you bashing other people's ideas, regardless of how crazy the idea is.
3) There is no copyright here-i.e. it's alright to take someone's idea and make it better.
4) Approach this wearing your problem-solver hat, not your critic hat.

For this to work, we need people to throw their ideas in the pot. Who knows? Maybe your crazy idea might be the piece to the puzzle that someone else may have mostly figured out.

[Skelterbet]

CONGA LINES IN HAUNTS

You know them. You hate them. We all do. Can anything be done about them? Well, let's look into it.

For those who don't know what we are talking about, a Conga Line in a Haunt occurs when a group going through the Haunt catches up to the group ahead of them, effectively keeping two groups together for the rest of the Haunt. The nature of Conga Lines, however, usually results in a third group joining the previous two. And then a fourth, then a fifth, and so on. This is most common on Friday and Saturday nights, particularly on the weekends closest to Halloween, however it can occur on any night.

What causes Conga Lines?
There are a few theories out there that I've read. I've never worked in a Haunt, so some of you experienced Haunt workers and owners please feel free to correct or add to these theories. Please keep in mind, the point of this discussion is to get ideas out there so we can solve the problem; this is not to point fingers or criticize anyone. In order to address the problem, we must look at it honestly and frankly.

Theories:

1) The person that admits each group into the Haunt is not allowing enough time between groups.
This could be due to a couple reasons, including: they do not know how backed up the Haunt is getting inside; they are feeling pressured by a large number of impatient/excited people in line; they have not been trained or given guidelines on how much time to allow between groups. There are probably more reasons that could be added to this list.

2) The patrons do not move through the Haunt at a good/even pace.
The hardest thing for a Haunt to control is what the patron is going to do. Some will run forward into the Haunt, some will turn and run back towards the entrance, some will stop and refuse to move on because they are afraid of what is in the next room. The end effect is that there is not an even flow through the Haunt. This is one area that Hayrides and places like Disney's Haunted Mansion excel: The patron is on a moving cart/omnimover/whatever and has no control over the pace as they move through the Haunt.

3) The Haunt has 'choke points' where movement is limited and causes log-jams.
These could be places where patrons musts crawl through or climb through. They could also be as simple as a hallway that is narrower than the rest or a room that has no clear exit for the patron to go through.

4) The Actor(s) in a scene at a Haunt block patrons and scare them for extended time periods.
This is a situation I've seen many times: the Actors get the scare and 'trap' the patron(s) by preventing them from being able to move forward in the Haunt. This can also be manifest by the patrons getting scared and running back towards where they came from. They then move very slow towards the room with the Actor because they know the scare is coming. If the Actor blocks them again....

I imagine that you experienced Haunt patrons, actors, and owners can add to this list. Please do so-the more information that we can use to come up with solutions, the better.

There are a number of good articles available that address these issues. The article: Effective Throughput in a Haunted Attraction by Norm Glenn located at http://www.hauntedattraction.com/41/curren...ue_boobiz.shtml (http://www.hauntedattraction.com/41/currentissue_boobiz.shtml) describes what one Haunt owner did to solve these problems.

Of note, I've seen a few articles that say a Haunt should "Scare Forward". The above article describes it this way: "Design your scares to keep patrons moving forward. Even though the patrons were required to interact with the environment, our actors made sure the patrons were well aware that it was safer to move forward then to stay where they were and face the actors."

I've seen this used and it tends to work fairly well on slower nights, however it doesn't prevent Conga Lines by itself. I think what cancels the "Scare Forward" idea is that some people get so scared they run until they hit the next group and see the monster attacking them, then they don't want to go into the room and it log-jams because the group behind them come running from the monster they just ran from.

[Luv2BScared]

I know that haunts use radios to communicate with staff. I have always wondered if there was a way to allow actors to communicate as well as other staff. If every actor in a scene had a radio could this perhaps happen:

Scene one: Guests go through, heading for next scene.
Actor in scene one gets on radio: "Scene one cleared"

This goes on with all actors through all scenes. If it works well, the actors should "sound off" scene by scene as guests make their way through.

The actor at the entrance knows when the first scene is clear and reset so they can send new guests in. Actor in every scene knows when the next scene is ready so guests can move on. If they have not heard that the next scene is clear they can stall the guest until they get the word that it is ready.

The radios could be the discreet headset type so guests neither see or hear it. It would be somewhat costly in the initial purchase phase, but would be of benefit if it keeps guests happy, and referring people to your haunt.

[Chris]

You know, I almost forgot to respond to this post. Just remembered while checking the boards tonight. Skelter, you hit the nail on the head on a lot of your ideas of what the problem might be. Unfortunately, I really don't see much of a way to solve the problem, other than like you said, if it were a ride like the haunted mansion. Even guides aren't foolproof in solving the problem, as once again, being a human element, sometimes the guides do not space the groups evenly. So this being said, what is their to do.

Let's look at it another way. If haunt owners/designers pay more attention to their layout, you can still have a good scare and entertainment factor, even when the conga lines occur. We try our best at The Asylum to consider this when we do our floorplan each year (fortunately or unfortunately, due to being temporary we redo our floorplan every year). Another way is to train the actors to pay attention to group spacing, to know when to hold groups up and when to speed them up.

This isn't going to eliminate the problem, but it will help to keep the patrons to get a better show, regardless of the crowd.

As I said in a different post, I hate it when groups get bunched up and don't have as good of an experience because of it. But, as I also said, everyone seems to want to come on Friday and Saturday, no matter what we do.

Luv2, the radio idea. This kinda happens through the verbal cues of the actors as patrons move through the house. On slow nights it works well, however, on busy nights, there would be no way for the actors to use radios in order to make this happen. We also have a pretty strict technology policy, we don't allow any modern communication (cell phones) in the house. Ghouls, ghosts, and the like don't use modern technology.

I truly wish there was a solution to this problem.

Chris

[Luv2BScared]

Well is all comes back to the visitors themselves...if visitors could move at a steady pace through a haunt we would have no need to have this discussion at all. I wish people would realize that their behavior in a haunt dramatically affects the experience not only for themselves but other visitors. Of course, that would require the majority of society to dispose of their, "It's all about me" attitude....that's another discussion in another forum...lol

[Skelterbet]

This may seem like a strange suggestion, but its worth bringing up (though it is probably not one that would ever get used).

There are many sad lessons to be learned from the Haunted Castle at the Six Flags Great Adventure. There were numerous issues that contributed to the tragedy, but there were also some interesting things that they did right, from a design standpoint.

According to available information, Six Flags Great Adventure hired George Mahana to make a duplicate of his existing Haunt (run at a boardwalk amusement park). Once completed, it was huge hit with the fans. Because of the volume of guests, Six Flags had George Mahana build an identical Haunt and place it next to the first one. When the volume of guests was high, they would open both sides and alternate groups between them. Between them was a control center. From what I gather, the guests never noticed. There is a discrepancy on whether the Haunt was the exactly the same or if it was mirrored, but that is a minor issue.

So, one possibility to create a better Haunt experience is to have two near-identical Haunts. On slow nights, run the groups through just one. If it is busy, open the second and alternate the guests between them. Simple....yet cost prohibitive. From what I understand, staffing a single Haunt is hard enough, let alone two identical ones. Depending on how you design them, though, you could hypothetically have your actors work both sides. This would entail a central divider that only the staff has access to. The actor could work one side and then move to the other side. If the groups are timed right, you could potentially have the same actors providing all the scares and the guests not noticing.

According to available information, the Haunted Castle ran "thousands" of guests through a day. I don't have any way to verify this (particularly since it has been gone for over 20 years now), but if you take the low end of that estimate, it is still a large number of guests going through.

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Side notes about the Haunted Castle: on the day of the fire, they only had one side open and guests did bunch up at points, though the available information is unclear about how bad this was. The information said that when the fire started, the guests turned to run out the entrance. The ones at the entrance thought the others were running because they were scared, so it was a mass of panicked confusion. The cause of the fire is not certain; the accepted cause is based on reports that officials have not verified: a guest was walking in a darkened area and used his lighter to illuminate the hallway, catching some exposed foam rubber on fire. The Haunt was neglected by the management of Six Flags, so it was starting to fall apart. Emergency Exits were an issue (according to some unverified reports, the Emergency Exit door was chained shut). In the end, eight people died in the fire.

The lessons from this tragedy have affected the entire industry to this day, the key ones revolving around appropriate precautions about fires. Part of the Fire Inspection involves making sure people can safely get out of the Haunt if it catches fire.

Anyway, it is an interesting historical Haunt that has many things to teach.

[Skelterbet]

Yeah....

I was going through some of the old postings and came across this one from Shade:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>Keep in mind that I have never run a haunted house (except a neighborhood one in the back yard) so I really have no idea what I'm talking about.

Since we've had the discussion about haunts running groups through too close together, here's a thought that I'm wondering if it might alleviate the groups running into each other.

Would it be feasible (given enough space and budget) to build a haunted house that was basically two identical haunts laid out next to each other? Like an "A Track" and a "B Track?"

I realize this means double on a lot of expenses. Twice as many props to buy and also twice as many breaking down. Some actors, if you built it right, could hit the track on the left and then the one on the right. (I know this is doable, because at least Spider Mansion and Haunted Mansion recycle actors multiple times throughout the haunt. Probably other haunts, too.) But you would probably need to hire a few more actors as well to accomodate a two-track operation.

If you did that, couldn't you basically keep sending people in at your same present spacing but instead, one goes into the A Track and then next goes into the B Track?

I don't doubt that it would affect your bottom line in terms of money. But if you're really doing it "just to thrill people" and because you are "passionate about Halloween," then wouldn't it be worth the cost?[/b]

This was in a thread referring to Conga Lines and refers to a couple other arguments that were going at the same time (October 9, 2007). One of the things mentioned at the end of this quote is about Haunt Owners doing this because they are "passionate about Halloween." Just to put this comment in context, this refers to a different thread where Shade and others were discussing why Haunt Owners create Haunts - the two views being (a) they do it to make money, versus (b) they do it because they love Halloween. That is an interesting subject for a different thread than this one (just in case someone wants to discuss it instead of the Conga Line issue).

__________________________________

The Haunted Castle had two virtually identical versions of their Haunt next to each other, just as Shade suggests here. I think the idea is a valuable one....but it has some issues. Let's explore these a little. Let me say right now: Like Shade, I am not, nor have I ever been, anything other than a Haunt Patron. I have never worked at a Haunt, let alone run one, built one, or paid for one. I do have some experience in theater, so I have a little background that is probably helpful, but not directly from this industry. This is a great opportunity for those who have been involved in a Haunt to help clarify some things on these issues - what follows is speculative with no hard facts (i.e. I'm speaking from assumptions, not experience). I'd love to hear what experienced people have to say here.

Space

Right off, having enough space to engineer two Haunts together is a big issue, particularly for indoor Haunts. This leads to the question: how much space does a good Haunt take, or need? I read an article by Leonard Pickel where he mentions that "In my personal opinion, Haunts are over priced, which is why I push people to go Multi Element! (Whatever you are charging now for your single haunt, if you divided it in two, you could charge more! So why do you still have a single Haunt?) My approach is at least two elements, but preferably 4 elements to get a $20 "combo" ticket price. (And please, if your building will let you, put the Haunts side by side. When you put them nose to tail, it is still just one big haunt, with queue lines inside!). You can read the full article here: Http://www.hauntedattraction.com/index.php..._position=47:40 (http://Http://www.hauntedattraction.com/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=27&MMN_position=47:40). The full article has several excellent ideas, but is somewhat outside the scope of the discussion in this thread.

That said, if you look locally, you can see some Haunt owners doing exactly what he suggests. For example: in the 2005 season we had The 13th Door as a single Haunt. In 2006, they added Curse of Slaughterhouse Gulch right next store to The 13th Door. Another example: The Hauntplex follows exactly what Mr. Pickel recommends. The point that I see here is that suggesting a Haunt use double the space to make one Haunt when they could make two goes against current industry practices. That is a significant issue.

The major question then is: Does using the space to make two Haunts and thereby providing better flow-through and thus a better Haunt experience for the Patrons worth the loss of a possible second Haunt in the same space (and potentially higher profits)?

Cost

If the Haunt has enough space to do two Haunts, does eliminating the second Haunt hurt the profit margins enough that it is not cost feasible? Part of that question is unanswerable. How many patrons did the Haunt lose because of large lines, and how many patrons will fail to return because of the Conga Line issue? Adding the duplicate Haunt provides a better Haunt experience, but it might do so at a loss to the Haunt. Before this gets to a "money vs. passion" discussion, the bottom line (as Mr. Pickel pointed out) is this: "If You Do Not Make a Profit With Your Haunt, Then You Don't Get To Play Any More!" That is a legitimate issue.

If the Haunt has enough space to do two Haunts and chooses to eliminate one to make a duplicate of the other, materials and props are less of an expense issue (since they already have materials and props). If the Haunt is a single entity and creates a duplicate, then you must factor in the cost of materials for the addition (which likely nearly doubles the cost to operate the Haunt).

Staffing

From what I understand, getting enough staff for one Haunt is bad enough, trying to populate two is pretty difficult. As mentioned in another discussion this season, the good Haunt actors are attracted to the good Haunts, so this may not be as big an issue.

Depending on how the Haunt is designed, you could potentially use the same actors (or at least some of them) on both sides, assuming the Haunt is mirrored and the actor's position can be along the central wall/corridor.

There could be an advantage to duplicate Haunts: you could have your "A Side" and "B Side" teams alternate on slow nights, allowing them the opportunity to see other local Haunts. On weekends and the last busy nights of the season you'd have them all on site working.
____________________________________

At this point, I can't think of anything else to add for the "duplicate Haunt" idea. I need more information on how Haunts operate before I can get my creative juices flowing to address the idea.

I do have other ideas on how to handle Conga Lines. Now if I could get more time to write....

[Skelterbet]

Another possibility to consider is having a single Haunt that has multiple tracts.

Group A goes in to the entrance and takes the door on the left while Group B goes in to the entrance and takes the door on the right. Both doors go through the same Haunt, but each goes through different areas (or opposite sides of the same area; e.g. in Disney's Haunted Mansion the guests circle around Madame Leota's table, so you can see the guests on the opposite side). This potentially can utilize the space and some of the same effects and still split the groups to prevent a Conga Line.

A variation on this is possible as well.

Assuming that a Haunt is having a problem with Conga Lines, it is a safe bet that it starts at the same place(s) every night that it is busy (like the logjam issue mentioned early in this discussion). I assume that most Haunt Operators know what part of their Haunt logjams to create a Conga Line. When I went to the The Asylum in 2006, the first half of the Haunt was great; the Conga Line started somewhere past the midpoint of the Haunt. I don't remember what was there that created it.

The variation: right before the point of the Haunt that bogs down, put in the multiple tract option. The first group comes into the room and goes through door A while the second group comes into the room and goes through door B. This can be facilitated by an actor in that room or externally by someone operating some sort of a lock mechanism that only allows one door to open at a time or a false wall that shifts to cover the door that is not to be used.

[Luv2BScared]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skelterbet @ Jan 19 2008, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=3391)</div>Another possibility to consider is having a single Haunt that has multiple tracts.

Group A goes in to the entrance and takes the door on the left while Group B goes in to the entrance and takes the door on the right. Both doors go through the same Haunt, but each goes through different areas (or opposite sides of the same area; e.g. in Disney's Haunted Mansion the guests circle around Madame Leota's table, so you can see the guests on the opposite side). This potentially can utilize the space and some of the same effects and still split the groups to prevent a Conga Line.

A variation on this is possible as well.

Assuming that a Haunt is having a problem with Conga Lines, it is a safe bet that it starts at the same place(s) every night that it is busy (like the logjam issue mentioned early in this discussion). I assume that most Haunt Operators know what part of their Haunt logjams to create a Conga Line. When I went to the The Asylum in 2006, the first half of the Haunt was great; the Conga Line started somewhere past the midpoint of the Haunt. I don't remember what was there that created it.

The variation: right before the point of the Haunt that bogs down, put in the multiple tract option. The first group comes into the room and goes through door A while the second group comes into the room and goes through door B. This can be facilitated by an actor in that room or externally by someone operating some sort of a lock mechanism that only allows one door to open at a time or a false wall that shifts to cover the door that is not to be used.[/b]

If group A goes through one door, while group B goes through another, where do both groups end up? If the haunt eventually comes back together, even at the end there is still potential for people to bunch up. If one group of people are bunched up in a haunt, screaming, they have the ability to recreate their behavior in other groups. Monkey see, monkey do. I saw it several times this past season. One group screams, runs, the group behind them follows suit. If they caught up to the group ahead, they had the ability to get that group to speed up and thus catch up to the next group.

One thing I have never seen/heard at a haunt is the direction from the door person that the visitors must walk at a steady pace throughout the haunt. I'm not sure it would do any good in some cases, but at least plant the seed. I believe that some people have no clue that they are the sole reason for conga lines in haunts. We do get told at a couple of haunts not to run as we are risking injury if we do, but that is the most I've heard. Why not inform people in the que line via sign or staff that if they want the best haunt experience they need to move at a steady normal walking pace. Inform them that running, standing still, etc. can create jammed up areas that will dramatically decrease their overall experience. Let's put some of the responsibility on the visitors themselves and not just the haunt owners. Visitors to haunts ar ethe first to complain about the problem, but fail to see that they ARE the problem. Inform them that if they run or stop dead and stand there they ruin the haunt not only for themselves, but the group ahead/behind them. Peer pressure can go a long way if applied correctly. Again, it won't work in all cases, but it may help to some degree.
I mentioned in a post in a similar topic that this past season I had gone to a haunt on a weeknight, VERY slow night, and I was 15 minutes behind the group ahead of me and still caught up to them because a woman in the group ahead refused to move. Fifteen minutes spacing should be more than enough, but again, the visitor caused the backup. The actor was doing all they could to get her to move without breaking character, she wouldn't budge. Spacing/timing of groups going in is not always the issue.

If it were up to me, anyone who stopped and refused to move would get zapped with a cattle prod. Anyone who ran would get tripped. Harsh? Yes, but they wouldn't create a jam now would tey?

[Chris]

As I read all the responses, I almost have to think of the legal objection of "asked and answered". It seems to me that you have a good grip on what can cause the problem, and then when you suggest a solution, you have a great idea, but realize that's it's probably not happening right now since it's not practical.

One thing that I really do feel isn't given much credit from the "haunt enthusiats of the OL", is that for some, the long wait and conga lines are part of the experience. Although it's not at all something that you enjoy, I think to some, they just expect it. That's not making an excuse or saying that I think it's ok, I just think to varying degrees people have come to accept the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have enough real estate to build two identical haunts and give everyone the experience they would love, but due to market conditions here (both real estate and attendance), it's not going to be feasible. In a perfect world ...

Chris

[Luv2BScared]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris @ Jan 27 2008, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=3402)</div>One thing that I really do feel isn't given much credit from the "haunt enthusiats of the OL", is that for some, the long wait and conga lines are part of the experience. Although it's not at all something that you enjoy, I think to some, they just expect it. That's not making an excuse or saying that I think it's ok, I just think to varying degrees people have come to accept the problem.



Chris[/b]

I posted somewhere once in the depths of the board that for me, the wait in line is part of the experience and an enjoyable one for the most part. I like standing in line, feeling the nervous energy buzz from the crowd as we all wait in eager anticipation of what lies ahead. Part of you wants the line to hurry up and move so you can get inside, the other part is content to wait because you're anxious and scared. For me personally, I like the que lines. Although I do not scare easily at all, I really like to hear what the crowd is saying and pick up on what they're feeling. I find the que line outside the haunt nearly as entertaining as the haunt itself.
My conga line frustration happens once I'm inside and a visitor creates a jam because of their behavior thus spoiling an effect or a scare for the rest of the group because they have bottlenecked the haunt. Again, cattle prods could work nicely for those people. HAHAHA

[Skelterbet]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luv2BScared @ Jan 27 2008, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=3405)</div>I posted somewhere once in the depths of the board that for me, the wait in line is part of the experience and an enjoyable one for the most part. I like standing in line, feeling the nervous energy buzz from the crowd as we all wait in eager anticipation of what lies ahead. Part of you wants the line to hurry up and move so you can get inside, the other part is content to wait because you're anxious and scared. For me personally, I like the que lines. Although I do not scare easily at all, I really like to hear what the crowd is saying and pick up on what they're feeling. I find the que line outside the haunt nearly as entertaining as the haunt itself.
My conga line frustration happens once I'm inside and a visitor creates a jam because of their behavior thus spoiling an effect or a scare for the rest of the group because they have bottlenecked the haunt. Again, cattle prods could work nicely for those people. HAHAHA[/b]

It's been a long time since I looked at this thread, but I was thinking about it recently. When I went to Rocky Point Haunted House, the line before the Haunt was like being in the Haunt. There were zombies walking around the graveyard that happened to be where the line was, and every now and then the music would blare out and the next thing we knew, the zombies were all doing Thriller by his supreme scariness, Michael Jackson.

The coolest thing about the line: They paid attention to details-it was well made and looked like the rest of the set. In other words, it prepared you for the Haunt by immersing you in the world while you waited. Having the actors and effects while waiting to get in was great. The local Haunts that I've been to do not have anything quite like it (and I admit that I have not been to that many of the locals). Believe it or not, the best Queue entertainment I've seen was at 13th Door, where they had this big bloody chainsaw guy roaming the parking lot and hitting the queue from time to time. It didn't fit the theme of the Haunt, but it was entertaining and got people into the spirit.

[ghia71]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>Believe it or not, the best Queue entertainment I've seen was at 13th Door, where they had this big bloody chainsaw guy roaming the parking lot and hitting the queue from time to time. It didn't fit the theme of the Haunt, but it was entertaining and got people into the spirit.[/b]

THAT's Kris' boyfriend!!! LMAO!!! He had a crush on her I think!

[Hellraiser15]

I liked the line at field of corpses because of its scene. It didnt really remind me of the haunt but I loved the scarecrow an how i looked ike the entrance of a farm. More place should make the line like the haunt. Just to get you ready to go. But one place whose line totally sucked, hauntplex. It was just a parking lot and you just walked through a doorway into the haunt. Didnt get me excited at all

[Luv2BScared]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mistressghia @ Apr 4 2008, 08:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=3899)</div>THAT's Kris' boyfriend!!! LMAO!!! He had a crush on her I think![/b]

He almost had a bigger crush than even he imagined!!! ROFL!! That guy is ridiculously annoying!